Talk: Die Flügel der Freiheit

Hey I'm not German but doesn't this part: "Dies ist das erste Gloria." mean: "This is the first victory" ? 

09:52, July 18, 2013 (UTC)Don´t waste my time with rubbish.

Hey. I'm German and I hope you don't mind my terrible wirting style, since my written English is not that good. Well, your translation as such is more or less correct. However in German you would not say "Dies ist das erste Gloria". I'd rather think that before "Gloria" a comma is missing and that "das" has to be changed to "der". 

"Dies ist der erste, Gloria!" Sounds in my ears ways better, because now this sentence can be related to the sentence before. So "der" is related to "Sieg". ---> It's "der Sieg"

My opinion is that "Gloria" is just an exclamation like "Hooray", since "Gloria" is something religous. Gloria = glory

Delphinium (talk) 12:56, July 22, 2013 (UTC) Delphinium

I just noticed that there is still a lot room for improvement for the Jiyuu no Tsubasa page. The lyrics are missing the last German part and there are few mistakes with other German parts that I noticed. If I find the time, I can make a few improvements myself, I am still unsure though, if the very last line is "Der feind ist grausam" or "Die Flügel der Freiheit".

NeoSuperior (talk) 21:38, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the booklet

We base almost all of the lyrics on the booklet, which has reduced the amounts of "edit wars" a lot, which should be a got thing. Sadly I realized that the booklet itself is a problem, escpacially for the english translation.

There are 3 possibilities:

1. The booklet itself has mistakes in it, which would be a huge problem as its rank as an "official source" would be damaged. (This includes any notable mistranslations of the German parts, but not the small grammatical mistakes)

2. The people who transferred the Kanji from the booklet to the wikia have made mistakes because of either misreading the kanji or because the kanji is unreadable (only applies to people who use the LQ scan instead of the original)

3. The scans of the booklet is fake and it was just photoshopped. (very unlikely, but still would be nice if someone could CONFIRM ITS PHYSICAL EXISTENCE)

So what is the problem?

Well I give an example: In the Kanji version of this wikia there is: 唄うのは《希望（Lied）》 but in the booklet it is just 唄うのは《希望》 (assuming that those who transferred the kanji from the booklet to the wikia didn't make a mistake). So what is the problem?

While I only know the absolute smallest basics about Japanease, I know how to use online dictionaries. (Yes it isn't just google translate) So 希望 is pronounced "kibo" and means "hope". In German "kibo" would be "Hoffnung". But as was noted in the Romaji lyrics, neither "kibo" nor "Hoffnung" are being sung. Instead it is the German word "Lied" (or something similar). "Lied" translated means "song".

So my question is, what has happened here? The official booklet says that there is supposed to be the word "hope"(唄うのは《希望》) but instead it is the word "song" (唄うのは《Lied》). So what is the English translation supposed to use here?

And this applies to other parts of the lyrics, as well!

So... what do we do now?

NeoSuperior (talk) 23:55, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what is the problem, if we really consider the booklet to be an official source and the article here contains information that clashes with it, we should just correct it. Since anyone can edit it, there's a high chance that wrong information has been added. I wish we could find an easy way to solve this, but I have zero knowledge of Japanese, lol. We could use a fluent Japanese speaker here...  Miskos3 Talk  00:11, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't see any problems with using the lyrics booklet as a source. You can look at photos of it if you search for 自由への進撃 (Jiyuu e no Shingeki) on google images, and it's also fairly easy to find some on tumblr. I agree that the wonky german parts might make a perfectly accurate english translation difficult, but that doesn't damage the legitimacy of the release itself...? (If I understood that correctly) I sadly don't know enough Japanese yet either, but seeing that this is still the best official source for the lyrics we have, I also think that we should edit the wikia accordingly. Minyaa (talk) 04:28, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

This will be a very long post:

Some of the Kanji lyrics of the booklet are inside of arrow brackets ("<" and ">"). Those are actually quite strange. The pronunciations of all the Kanji in the arrow brackets themselves are not even once used in the actual song.

Some of them are pronounced in Japanease but still all meanings of the in-arrow-bracket-japanease-pronunciations you can hear in the song are clearly different from the Kanji's meaning.

The other in-arrow-bracket-passages are pronounced in German. While some of those passages are simply the German translation of the Kanji, other passages seem to have German words that have nothing to do with the meaning of the Kanji in the booklet.

I have already discarded the possibility that the booklet is fake, so to explain why it is as it is, I can think of those possibilities:

• 1) This was completely intentional by REVO and it is nothing more him exercising his "artistic freedom" for whatever reason, or something similar to that.
• 2) The Kanji are incorrect, because:
  • 2a) The people who were transcribing the lyrics from the booklet to the wikia were misreading the Kanji, or someone was performing (intentional or non-intentional) vandalism.
  • 2b) The publishing company, or whoever produced the lyrics, made mistakes, because they mistranslated the German-pronounced passages (would however not explain why there are mistakes with the Japanease-pronounced passages), used an "outdated version" (e.g. made modifications after the booklet was already in production, and to make the deviation at least visible, added the arrow brackets), or did some different kind of mistake.
• 3) The pronunciations were misinterpreted or "misheard" by the people who wrote them down into this wikia (This is also the reason for every edit war, before the booklet was used as the main source).

So with these possibilities in mind, let's try to examine each case one by one.

I will use a Kanji + reading -> translation (if possible) + 2nd reading -> translation etc... VS probable pronunciation in the actual song -> translation + 2nd probable pronunciation -> translation etc...

Then I add everything else that I found out about that passage (marked with "EXTRA"). Let's begin with the Japanease passages in chronological order:

All 3 in-arrow-bracket-passages that were pronounced in Japanease, seem to have a different meaning, than the corresponding Kanji:

一矢 + いっし / Isshi -> Arrow     VS   ひとり / hitori -> one / one person     EXTRA: the Kanji for "one person" is 一人 so maybe, even though it is very unlikely, the necessary lines for "一矢" are dirt or some scan mistake (possible if transcriber only had scan, else, if that person had the original booklet, such a mistake is very unlikely).

深層 + しんそう / shinsou -> depth / deep level     VS     やみ / yami -> darkness / dark     EXTRA: [n/a]

表層 + ひょうそう / hyousou -> surface / outer layer     VS     ひかり / hikari -> light     EXTRA: As you can see both the meaning of the Kanji and the meaning of the actual pronunciation contrast with the corresponding one from the preceeding ones (e.g. deep level/outer layer and darkness/light).

Now the ones with German pronunciations. There are 9 in-arrow-bracket-passages (I skip the ones between the wings as they are already covered) with Kanji that are pronounced in German in total. 6 of those (more or less) match the Japanease meaning, while the 3 other don't. This time before the EXTRA stuff, I will add what part of the pronunciation I personally think is definitly there. When I write "-" it means there can possibly still be letters inbetween and if two or more letters seem plausible I put them into round brackets with a "/" inbetween them, e.g.: (x/y)

Here we go:

鋼刃 + [n/a] -> steel sword / steel blade     VS     Gloria -> honour / glory + (k/g)-o-ia     EXTRA: Sadly I couldn't find anything on jisho.org about the Kanji, aside from the indivual Kanji: 鋼 -> steel 刃 -> sword/blade. On google translate 鋼刃 was translated to steel blade and the pronunciation is supposed to be Koujin. However I don't trust google translate too much on that matter so I left that out.

凱歌 + がいか / gaika -> victory song / victory     VS     Sieg -> victory + S(i/e)-(k/g)-     EXTRA: This is the first MATCH. I read that some people were hearing "Degen" at this point, which seriously surprised me, because it sounds completely different and the amount of syllables don't match at all. Actually I am 99% sure that it is supposed to be "Sieg".

自由の翼 + じゆうのつばさ / jiyuu no tsubasa -> wings of freedom     VS     Flügel der Freiheit -> wings of freedom     EXTRA: If they had made a mistake with this one... Well this one is a complete MATCH, the 2nd one. It is the TITLE as well, also it is sung 3 more times (2 of these are the Kanji between the wings on the booklet and the third one is sung by the German singer, which is not shown on the booklet).

愚行の螺旋 + ぐこうのらせん / gukou no rasen -> spiral of folly     VS     Ringe der Torheit -> rings of folly + Linie der Torheit -> line of folly + -in-e der (To/Do)-heit     EXTRA: I guess this is a "more or less correct" MATCH. I replaced "Linie" by "Ringe" recently because it sounds closer to a spiral and also seems to fit that passage more. I guess it was a mistranslation by "german experts" from Linked Horizon (or REVO himself). But "Ringe der Torheit" is the closest you can get to meaning of the Kanji, so I guess we should stick with that.

巨人達 + きょじんたち / kyojintachi -> giants     VS     Titanen -> titans     EXTRA: The German word for giants is "Riesen", which is synonymous to "Titanen" (should be like that in the English language too). Another MATCH.

戦意 + せんい / seni -> fighting spirit     VS     Instrument -> instrument / tool + i-st-u-me-(t/d)     EXTRA: I have no idea how to fix this one... they're so different that I cannot even imagine that it is a translation error, it must be something more fundamentaly...

希望 + きぼう / kibou -> hope / wish / aspiration     VS     Lied -> song + Glut -> blaze + Blut -> blood + Licht -> light + -(i/ü/u)-(t/d)     EXTRA: I really have a hard time to understand this one. I cannot even identify the first Letter or even the first vowel. This one will take some time I guess...

自由の地平線 + じゆうのちへいせん / jiyuu no chiheisen -> horizon of freedom     VS     Horizont der Freiheit -> horizon of freedom     EXTRA: [n/a]

可能性の背面 + かのうせいのはいめん / kanousei no haimen -> rear side of possibility     VS     Hintere Front der Möglichkeit -> rear side of possibility + Hintergrund der Möglichkeit -> Background of possibility + Hi-te-(o/u)n-(t/d) der Möglichkeit     EXTRA: While this seems to be a MATCH, I am not certain of my translation, because I have no real idea what a "hintere front" could be... If someone has any idea then please help.

Well I guess I finished it... that was some work...

Websites used for translation: jisho.org (mainly as dictionary) and google translate (mainly for context issues)

tl;dr:  It took me several hours to write this... so... READ IT!

NeoSuperior (talk) 03:28, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

Um... I'd like to think the reason for this (uh...not matching thing) is most likely because of possibility 1? I'm not very sure, since all your reasons for this situation are valid, but this isn't the first time I've seen the song sung differently from the printed kanji. I've seen it happen a few times in some of the Vocaloid songs I listen to (the kanji in the lyrics and the words sung out were different), and the translators just sorta get around it by either ignoring the second meaning all together or putting one in parentheses... I guess it's a way to convey multiple meanings at once?

Seagull Solo (talk) 22:12, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's a common practice in Japanese literature to have kanji and then furigana that say something else. It's indeed a way to convey two meanings at the same time. It's neither a mistake by the artist or by the people who transcribed, it's just your usual hidden meaning behind the sung lyrics and is all very intentional.

Yume hanabi (talk) 12:25, October 21, 2013 (UTC)Yume hanabi

Whoa, whoa. Yes^^. They can also do so because a) the syllable(s) do(es)n't fit so they have to look for words (usualy simpler) that fit the syllable number, b) they decide that "this one sounds better", or c) they decide that "this one works better". So, they intentionally do so, and I think we must note the "incorrect kanji" since REVO actually meant them. I'm going to do so.

PS: In fact, not only artists do so. Sometimes common people play kanji, and I know one kind called "written as xxx, read as yyy", which has even influenced many Chinese. e.g. "written as 'gentlemen(紳士)', read as 'hentai

Rethliopuks (talk) 16:32, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

鋼刃 + [n/a] 
--NeoSuperior (talk) 03:28, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

The pronunciation of "鋼刃" is "こうじん / kōjin" in Japanese language, just as you said. --Plover-Y (talk / KirbyWiki / WLB Wiki) 2015-02-01 06:55 (UTC)

Name of the Song

Since we found out that guren no yumiya's official name is "Feuerroter Pfeil und Bogen", isn't it also possible that the actual official name of jiyuu no tsubasa is "Flügel der Freiheit"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by NeoSuperior (talk • contribs)

It is, actually. hfc2X 20:23, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

I just checked it again and according to wikipedia, the name we use now, "Flügel der Freiheit" (Wings of Freedom) is not completely right. It should actually be "Die Flügel der Freiheit" (The Wings of Freedom) NeoSuperior (talk) 22:43, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Well it seems everywhere else I look in the internet it is "Die Flügel der Freiheit" as well, so if no one gives me a good reason why I should not change it to that, I will move the page. NeoSuperior (talk) 19:01, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead  Miskos3 Talk  19:07, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Characters in Order of Appearance

Should the first one be Eren because we don't know who the female titan is until episode 24. And that 2nd Opening starts in Episode 14 where it hasn't introduce the female titan unitl episode 17.Jennicious (talk) 07:14, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

But the Female Titan IS Annie after all... hfc2X 08:37, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah but if you watch this series for the first time how would you know if she is the female titan?Jennicious (talk) 08:43, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

If you watch the series for the first time then you shouldn't come to the wiki. You would likely search for the "Colossal Titan" article and be spoiled big time. hfc2X 08:47, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Still that don't give a reason of putting annie name on it because what if that person never thought of considered Annie as a Female Titan.Jennicious (talk) 22:49, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Lol no, you don't seem to get the point. Not listing Annie when she does appear (before anyone else, like the article mentions) would be the same as giving misleading information. hfc2X 23:06, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Random Newbie With Questions!?

The freedom and the death. Those two are twins.

The freedom or the death?

Our friend is one!

Um...for this stanza... I want to know why "the" was added before "freedom" and "death"? Personally, I think it'd sound better as:

Freedom and death. The two are twins.

Freedom or death?

Our friend is one!

But then I don't know if that'd change anything since I don't know any German, and I'm hesitant to just change it without at least hearing out the reason it was changed to its current form...

Also, is there a reason there's a "yea!" in the line "Dancing through the clear skies, yea!——"? Just wondering, sorry for the bother... Seagull Solo (talk) 06:36, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

It's because it was literally translated. But I don't really like how it is written in german (die Freiheit und der Tod), because the wording is kinda weird. I'm no expert in german, but die and der can be perfectly omitted there AFAIK. hfc2X 07:44, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

It indeed is a literal translation. The articles "die" (feminine "the") and "der" (masculine "the") are either used to highlight the nouns "Freiheit" (="freedom") and "Tod" (="death"), or to fill the space of the line, as "Freiheit und Tot. Die beiden sind Zwilinge" would sound weird. I didn't know for sure if it was to fill the space or to highlight the nouns, that's why I chose the literal translation. As for the first word of the second sentence in the same line, you are free to choose either "the", "these" or "those", while "the" would be more literal, "these" and "those", at least for me, sound smoother, but I am not sure which of them, so if you think one of the others fits more for the beginning of that sentence then go ahead and change it. NeoSuperior (talk) 14:37, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining! I think I'll just leave it as it is? With the literal translation, having it as "the" instead of "those" would sound repetitive... Seagull Solo (talk) 00:40, October 4, 2013 (UTC)